The third and potentially last fitting on my Chittleborough & Morgan suit. Both jackets and trousers were being finished off, and Joe wanted to check the sleeve length before putting the buttonholes in.
Those buttonholes, of course, will be some of the finest anywhere on Savile Row. Check out the Milanese buttonhole on the jacket, below.
Also nice is the fact Michael has started putting a Milanese buttonhole on all of the C&M waistcoat lapels. Together with the cloth back, it makes them into much more like a functioning jacket. And as long-time readers will recall, I’m a big fan of the waistcoat and trousers as modern office attire.
Also nice is the fact Michael has started putting a Milanese buttonhole on all of the C&M waistcoat lapels. Together with the cloth back, it makes them into much more like a functioning jacket. And as long-time readers will recall, I’m a big fan of the waistcoat and trousers as modern office attire.
Other changes were small: a slight nip to the waist of the trousers and touch more suppression to the waist of the jacket.
We also began styling it, as I considered where and with what I would likely wear the suit. The aforementioned waistcoat-and-trousers would work well at the office, but the jacket is too much of a statement for that. Instead, I’m likely to add that at evening events, perhaps with a simple white shirt and white handkerchief.
Hi Simon
Will the back seam be this pronounced when finished? If so, why?
Second, is the lapel button hole hand sewn? Is there a specific way of doing it? Because I showed a picture of such a button hole to my tailor and he was adamant that this is not hand sewn as it does not have the tiny thread indents at the right angle to the horizontal thread!
Hi Omar,
Yes, the back seam and the side seams of the trousers will be raised in this way. It is a dressy detail.
Yes, the lapel buttonhole is absolutely hand sewn. It is a Milanese buttonhole, which involves a different technique of winding the thread around a thicker gimp, rather than tying small knots. It is only used by French tailors – and Chittleborough. That is likely why your tailor does not recognise it.
Always bear in mind tailors have limited knowledge. They are unlikely to have worked in countries other than their own and certainly won’t have had suits made by them by a range of tailors.
Simon
Dear Simon,
First I want to say, that the suit looks very nice.
Second, I would avoid using words like “only”.
As far as I know Musella Dembech in Milano also does Milanese buttonholes. And for sure there are other tailors that does that too. 😉
Best Regards
Hristo
True, that is an exaggeration. But all French tailors do, where they are hard to find elsewhere. Indeed, both Tom Ford and Berluti suits now carry them as well, the first made by Zegna and the latter by Caruso. It’s a brave new world for the buttonhole.
Simon
You talk of how the jacket may be too much for the office, obviously with those lapels you can see why! What would you say is a good balance between sober enough office attire and fun after work, drinks or evening wear? Some of us like to not look too much like a banker after work!
Thanks
Rupert
That’s a good question Rupert, perhaps one for a future post. A lot of it depends on your office and your evening event, but some things to consider: colour in the outfit with a cardigan, perhaps a pocket square. Add a flower in the buttonhole if going out somewhere special. Or pair some nice chinos with a tailored jacket (grey donegal tweed, brown herringbone cashmere, anything on the casual/formal boundary). It’s a big area!
Hi Simon,
what kind of cloth is this?
Dugdale’s 13oz twill. Not as shiny as the pictures suggest, but with all the body
Hi Simon,
I really like the cloth you’ve chosen for C&M 3 piece. Are there any particular reasons why you went for this cloth?
Also, I would appreciate if you could comment on which season of the year you could wear this suit and its durability.
Many thanks
Kind regards
Philip
Hi Philip,
I went for it because it’s relatively heavy (13oz) and would look fantastic with the structured cut. It is also very durable.
That does mean I wouldn’t wear it outside Autumn and Winter, however.
Great article and lovely jacket.
I’m in the process of planning a trip to London but need some more information on the bespoke process.
What is the least amount time needed for suit to be made? Can it be done in the time frame of a vacation? What’s the cost for a typical 2 piece suit? (I would pay for another set of trouser but I need to know how I should budget for the trip.) How long do fittings last?
Thanks again for your articles.
Hi Abraham,
Have a search through the site – you will find a lot of information. How the bespoke process works, for example. But no, it is unlikely to be available within the time of a vacation. Most will take at least 8 weeks. Fittings vary from 1 to 3. Cost varies from £1000-£5000. And explaining why is a very long story!
Simon
Simon
When showing a well cut coat,it’s an inspiration.How about also show how a well cut trousers that balances ,to exhibit the overall assemble.
Nik
Sure. There were some pictures of the trousers in the last post, but I’ll put some more on with the final suit.
Simon
would love those shoulders without the roping at the end, but otherwise, some great tailoring and finishing! Do C&M adhere strictly to this style of jacket, or are they amenable to more sober styles?
-john
There is some room for moderation, certainly. Don’t expect a drape cut though.
Thank you for sharing this. Personally, I like these built up shoulders much more than Italian shoulders. They remind me a little of those on Mr. D. Taub’s jackets. Is their construction similar in a way?
More built up generally rather than cut down to be just thick at the ends, but the effect is that different
Like the knot on the tie .
Could you tell me what type of knot it is ?
It’s a normal four-in-hand, but with Joe’s extra thick and wide ties. And pinched in the knot
So the only place we can buy that tie is at Chittleborough & Morgan, correct?
That specific tie, yes, not least because Joe has been designing them to go with particular suits/cloths
Simon
Hi Simon –
Stunning coat. Really like the lapels. Is the seam along the back an example of a lapped seam?
Would you tell me what C&M’s price range is for a suit like the one you’re having made?
-Brown
Sorry, forgot to reply to this. This suit is £5000 including VAT – it would be £4000 for a two-piece. Again, that includes VAT, so two-piece to anyone outside the EU would be £3333
To judge from the pictures, the seam at the back seems more raised than along the trousers?
It’s very similar
What exactly was the wool? It looks superb. Is it from a known wool bunch like Loro Piana?
It’s Dugdale’s, like I said. You should be able to find it pretty easily, but I’ll get the bunch and number too.
It’s 4216 navy serge from Dugdale’s The White Rose Caldonaire bunch. Heavier than I thought: 15/16 oz.
OK, some disagreement among the Dugdale’s boys. The cloth is actually a cavalry twill, not a serge.
“It’s similar to a serge but with a different construction and finish which creates more of a face cloth showing more press, rather than the very dry serge, and a little more fluid than the stiff construction of a traditional serge.”
Hi you mentioned on another post/article that the C&M suit might be a 14oz. I just wanted to check that it was confirmed that this is the 4216 navy cavalry twill 15.8oz from Dugdale? A link is here – https://shop.dugdalebros.com/search/product/4216-navy-blue-cavalry-twill/colour/navy_blue_cavalry_twill/page/4/
I had thought it was the 14oz serge twill originally, link here – https://shop.dugdalebros.com/invincible/product/inv011dug14518/colour/dark_navy_blue_twist_serge/page/271/
I am looking to have this for my wedding suit (different maker) with a notch lapel. Do you think it would be suitable for a grooms suit (normal suit and tie dress code) in Autumn time? On another note, I am undecided whether to have an outside ticket pocket with it, is this appropriate for a grooms suit? I am looking to wear it in the future for work in a corporate office also.
Hi,
I haven’t looked, but I would assume the material will go under a different number now, if indeed it still exists. You might be best asking Dugdale’s if you want to be sure. If you do, let me know.
Yes it would be fine for a grooms suit. Personally I prefer other colours like a mid- to pale grey that don’t look as worklike, but you are limited if you want to wear it in the office afterwards.
I would avoid the ticket pocket for something smarter like this.
Also, see here for the section on weddings.
Thanks and weight wise is 16oz too heavy to wear at an October wedding and at work or is it generally a normal weight? In regards to the ticket pocket, I did notice you had one on your Kent Haste grey wedding suit, is the reason why I shouldn’t because it makes the suit more casual for a groom to have?
It’s not a normal weight, no, that would be much more like 11-13oz. If you want a versatile office suit, I wouldn’t recommend it.
I did have one, but regret it for that use. Yes it looks more sporting – more like a hacking jacket or country suit.
As a bespoke finisher myself, I do feel that Milanese buttonholes are massively over-rated and over-hyped by a few Rake journalists. They are not strong enough to use on the working buttonholes and, for me, all the buttonholes should be of the same harmonious type. Lastly, they are not more difficult to do than a traditional hand-sewn buttonhole. I, for one, do not believe the hype.
Whether you like them, of course, is a question of taste. If you can do them as fast as regular buttonholes, on the other hand, you could make a lot of money in Paris…
Actually the Milanese buttonhole today has become fashionable while should remain milanese (caruso for example is neapolitan and it is well known in italy that neapolitan buttonholes sucks). But a very fine milanese is something you won’t see everyday..you see a lot of them but just 1 or 2 of them are real. The real milanese buttonhole should be made only on evening dress or on special request in some type of fabrics, not on every sport jackets or suits. Bespoke tailoring is not fashionable.
The French tailors have been doing it for a long time – that’s not fashion. Whether it should go on tweed jackets or just evening wear is of course a matter of taste – as you demonstrate with your point about the Neapolitans putting no emphasis on buttonholes (yet hand-sewing shirt buttonholes, even on cheap RTW)
First of all, the Milanese buttonhole is milanese not french, history speaking, it goes back to the “Università dei sartori” and probably sooner, then mixed with the abruzzi buttonholes method imported by domenico caraceni.
Secondly in taloring there are rules and rules are not subjected to fashion as in this case and absolutely not a matter of taste otherway every tradition and tailoring rules would have no more importance.
Last but not least, the neapolitans have a very loose tradition on buttonhole making, althought they have a long tradition in shirts (probably you know that a shirt buttonhole is different from a jacket buttonhole).
Thanks. I don’t think I said they were French, and I rather disagree on the rules. Learn the rules and then break them – see my series of posts on that topic.
“learn the rules and then break them”..everything follow a rule, maybe you don’t see them because you don’t want to, but they are there 🙂
Well no, that is my point. I know the rules and then begin to break them – as indeed does every stylish man I have ever met 😉
Well, maybe you can tell me you know your style rules but not the tailoring rules, to explain me better not the way you dress but the way you stitch the dress and I know them very well…and if I remember well we was talking about the rules behind the milanese buttonhole not the style you have. 😉
They’re the same rules, for me. But again there’s little point debating it, it’s pretty subjective
Hello Simon, wonderful piece. I espcially like the cut of the lapels with the slightly round belly..harks back to a 1930s style..see John Gielgud in Hitchcock´s Secret Agent (1939). Could you tell me about the wonderful blue tie…also is tied using four in hand (as you have achieved a longer shaplier knot). With thanks. Stephen.
Thanks. The tie is one of Joe’s creations in-house. It is very wide, which creates a longer knot, but I find it too wide in the blade to be honest.
More tie makers should look to straighter-cut ties, that don’t narrow so much at the neck. Charvet’s standard cut is the best I know from that point of view
Hey Simon. Im getting a second commission done by Thom Sweeney, a 3 piece in a subtle charcoal glen plaid check (its between charcoal and dark grey if that makes sense!). Im having a bit of an issue working out tie colours & patterns. Its more for an evening occasion rather than business. So I’m looking for something with traditional flair as apposed to a conservative look. Do you have any recommendations?
Hey Ollie. Have a look under the ‘Style’ category or search for charcoal suits, or formal outfits.
Blue shirt with silver tie, white with Macclesfield, some purple…
Dear Simon
Not only French tailors and Chittleborough and Morgan do Milanese button holes but also several Italian tailors do as well.
Regards
Gohar
Yes, a few do now, as do quite a few MTM or RTW brands as well
Agreed Simon, Tom Ford for one.
How many hours would you say were taken to make this suit?
Regards
Gohar