I have a particular problem with crewneck sweaters.
Although I love them, I find my relatively long neck means they don’t look good without a collar underneath. I need a shirt, rather than just a T-shirt.
It’s the reason I sometimes wear neckerchiefs or bandanas at the neck - and developed some specifically for that purpose, with Begg & Co.
But I can’t wear them all the time - it is a rather particular look if nothing else. And there are days at the weekend when I don’t want to wear a shirt (or just want to save on the ironing).
That was why I remarked, briefly, in my article on new Swedish brand Rubato, that I liked the way they styled polo shirts underneath knitwear.
I have tried polo shirts underneath knits before, years ago.
But the polo always felt a little bulky, as it’s so much thicker than a shirt. And the collar never seemed to sit right. It was too small, or perhaps too rounded, to work well.
After exhaustively trying polo shirts and knitwear following that Rubato piece (good styling will do that to you - both inspire and obsess) I think I’ve found out why.
This is nothing revelatory. But basically, the polo shirt underneath has to have a collar that’s more like a shirt, so it stands up well inside the collar of the crewneck.
And the knitwear has to be thick enough that the addition of a polo underneath it doesn’t feel disproportionate.
The point about the collar is one that drove The Armoury to develop their range of polo shirts, as it’s the same things that make a polo work under a tailored jacket.
And of course it was related to the design of our Friday Polos.
However, the material of the Friday Polo is a bit too thick. Plus, we no longer offer short-sleeved versions, and short sleeves are better with the bulk issue.
So Armoury polos it is. Of the seven brands I own (Armoury, Permanent Style, Orlebar Brown, Aspesi, Smedley, Fedeli, Testoria Korea), theirs were the best.
Only Testoria and PS came close - only those three have a collar designed this way. (Though I see Thom Sweeney ones are also good there - I just haven’t tried them.)
It sits up high above the neckline of the sweater, has a sharp fold to it, and sweeps back neatly from the front.
This is due to some combination of the proper ‘stand’ on the collar, the fineness of the cotton piqué, the structure of both stand and collar, and the spread of the cut.
In the pictures here, I’m wearing a white short-sleeved Armoury polo under a cashmere crewneck from Luca Faloni.
The Faloni knit is fairly light, and only just works.
Anything lighter and the polo would show through at the ends of the short sleeves, and you’d feel like you were stretching something thin over something thick.
Better is a chunkier cashmere or a shetland sweater (like my cream one from Trunk).
I find this combination works well, and it does feel more relaxed and casual - more sporty, in an old-fashioned way - than a regular shirt.
I now regularly wear this with casual trousers such as chinos (Stoffa or Armoury Army chinos) and suede loafers. The coat is a recent commission from Saman Amel, which I'll hopefully cover soon.
As regards colour of polos, by the way, I find this very narrow.
White is good, cream is OK, and with certain colours of knitwear, pale grey is good as well.
But that’s about it. It’s like the colours of regular shirts: it’s mostly these and variations on pale blue that look best under knitwear. And unfortunately, it’s very hard to find a good pale blue in piqué.
Perhaps inevitably, given things I’ve been inspired by recently, there is something Ivy about this way of wearing a polo shirt.
The pictured outfit is too sleek of course, but with those Armoury chinos it would be bang on. Even white socks.
Which is also place to mention that I can’t abide the collar of a polo shirt turned up.
This is highly subjective. It’s entirely based on my culture and age. But for me a popped polo is too reminiscent of posh, idiotic school boys.
Yet I have no such negative associations with white socks. Unlike my wife, who thinks they’re horribly naff.
These are our prejudices. Upon which, sadly, many ideas of clothing and style are based.
One final thing: a regular shirt under a knit like this will always be safest, and perhaps always look best.
I am not suggesting that a polo is a replacement for that, or that it will work for everybody.
Merely that it is a nice occasional alternative. And I’ve found, works for me in these particular parameters.
Photography: Jamie Ferguson @jkf_man
Interesting. Wouldn’t your lightweight polos address the issue of thickness?
Yes true, they would. Though they’re long sleeved
Simon. Beautiful coat. Can I ask the details?
It’s from Saman Amel – as mentioned. I’ll cover it in more detail later.
I get sweaty just looking at these pictures! Which I find is the problem for us warm-blooded people these days. Its just not possible to layer like this when indoors. I find layering knitwear to be a lot warmer than just wearing a suit jacket and a shirt. Im guessing this has to do with the fact that the jacket is more open and the wool isnt as close to the body as knitwear will be. Its such a shame though. I love the look and feel a heavy, cashmere sweater. But Im not sure if it will ever be worth the investment.
I don’t find it any warmer than wearing a shirt with knitwear – and this isn’t heavy knitwear either. But I understand if you can never wear knitwear indoors.
Would you say there is a difference is the knitwear is a cash/silk mix? I havent tried that but thinking of it, especially the new Saman Amel line.
It’s dressier with that silk in it – personally I prefer fine merino for thin knits (something I laid out when launching the Finest Knitwear)
Yes, the Finest Knitwear has been on my list of things I’d like to try. Its only sizing that has left me wondering, as I have a somewhat heavy frame and most RTW knitwear tend to be too tight around the waist and shoulders when the length is right. Would you say its possible to change the length in this sense and go for a bigger size?
Sorry Nicolas, I should have mentioned that we’re not carrying the Finest Knitwear for the moment. We’ve not re-ordered to make room for the Dartmoor and a couple of other things next year.
Oh, thats alright. For next year then 🙂
A good time to ask the following…
With a crew neck wearing a shirt …. collar out or in?
Likewise , with a v neck collar out or in?
And finally , which is better (more appropriate) with a shirt collar …. a crew neck or v neck ?
Thanks
It’s a style question, largely driven by fashion, and personal. But I’d say always inside, both crew neck and V-neck.
At the least, having the collar outside, today, is more likely to be unusual and more of a look.
Both crew and V are perfectly appropriate with a shirt collar.
Arguably a crew is slightly more casual, but it’s more a question of style, again. Some people think a V is better with a jacket because it mimics the shape of the lapels; others think that doesn’t work at all.
It’s also partly a question of which flatters your body type more – whether you benefit from that long V or not (slimmer guys may not).
Personally, I wear crew necks mostly and only Vs when that V is pretty deep (see my Loro Piana MTM one, or Rubato)
Interesting. In terms of chunkier knitwear (crewneck), do you prefer cashmere or shetland/lambswool?
I like both. Cashmere more dressy, shetland/lambswool more casual.
I generally wouldn’t wear cashmere with workwear khakis and a leather jacket, for example.
Hi Simon,
I used to frequently wear broadfall point and spear point and even OCBDs with the collar points unfastened, beneath V-neck sweaters with either the top button fastened, or with a necktie, and the collar points laid atop the sweater. I hardly do it anymore, but it is rather stylish, I think. I started to do this after I saw one of my Grandfather’s old photographs from the 1930s where he and some of his friends were wearing their shirts and sweaters together like this. It appealed to me. They were doing the same things after the war as well, from the photographs.
The tie was under the sweater, the collar points, were not.
Very interesting discussion here Simon. How about your lightweight long sleeves Friday Polo with Rubato crewneck?
Would it work as well as yours shown here?
Hey Ben – see comment above. No, I wouldn’t wear that under knitwear, even it’s lightweight. The pique cotton is still a little too bulky and ‘sticky’ for me, personally.
Hi Simon,
Thank you for this very informative article. When wearing shirts with crew necks, do you favour a particular type of shirt collar and fabric? And would you also recommend keeping the crewneck slightly heavier when wearing with shirt?
Thanks Rob
Hi Rob,
The collar of the shirt just has to be high enough to sit proud of the crewneck, and stay there. So something with a rather low or unstructured collar doesn’t work. Button downs can be better, but they aren’t necessarily: there are several variables at work including collar height on the body, stand height, collar structure, and collar shape.
In general yes, it’s easier to wear a crewneck over a shirt when it’s slightly heavier. But it also depends on the shirt underneath. Very fine merino knits are fine if worn over quite light shirts.
Really interesting piece, Simon.
Were you consciously channeling Tintin?
https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTQBcQId6zZHMSGBNCQ2hAN2osU8R5HIctouHZbv7TEJmcnkRzj%26s&sp=9e7d1dd383ec8ee4dabb8cbf99834e02&anticache=502502
I’m quite serious though. I have the same issue with my neck and crew-necks. The best option with shirts seems to be buttondown collars which stand up the right way. But what about having the shirt points outside the collar? – a la Tintin; or possibly Prince George. It’s definitely a look, although one perhaps better suited to the young. It doesn’t work with that cut-away style of collar, but IMHO can look nice with an ordinary style of polo collar not the fancy Italian shirt-style sort. Not sure whether it’s unfashionable or high-fashion.
Ha! No I wasn’t, but love it. The red plus-fours as well.
As mentioned above in comments, I just don’t like that look of it outside the crewneck. It’s certainly a good way to stop it falling inside the knitwear, but I think it looks too stylised
I guess it’s a matter of taste
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btw I completely forgot to ask – have you tried the luca falone polo shirts and if so what do you think.
They’re nice, but a good example of a low collar – great on their own, not so much with tailoring or a knit like this
What do you think about polo shirts with a button down collar?
They can look nice – and would likely work well in this instance to stay above the crewneck as well
You say that there are some days you don’t want to wear a shirt, but I am not exactly sure why you feel this way. I know you mention ironing, but with a button-down collar you don’t need to iron if you are wearing the sweater under a crewneck: that’s a third the fun of wearing a sweater. Also, I get the feeling that many people don’t like to wear shirts all the time, because most shirts are too tight an thus less comfortable, and also because many shirts are too structured.
Personally I’d always want to give the collar a quick going over, and the body too, before wearing it.
But also, a T-shirt is more more casual and can just feel more relaxed.
Hi Simon,
Very interesting!
Any experience with Sunspel Riviera polo?
Thanks!
Nice, but doesn’t have a collar that can work in this context
Also not quite slim enough in the for for me personally
Hi Simon,
Love this article! I too am a fan of polo shirts under knitwear, however I typically wear Shetland or alpaca knitwear, so it can be a bit scratchy, I also don’t like to wear short sleeves under long sleeves, so I typically opt for the PRL polo shirts with the spread dress shirt collar as yrs has, but which also have long sleeves and buttoned cuffs. He used to offer a model called the “Featherweight” which really solved a lot of the issues which yr describing, as well as his standard pique knit fabric made up in the self same shirt. I think he still does offer them, occasionally, but you have to keep yr eyes open to catch them before they’re gone.
I like to wear mine with Summer Tweeds instead of my usual Oxford and pinpoint Oxford cloth shirts, namely because it’s becoming harder and harder to find good end-on-end or actual Madras that is woven by hand and hence, breaths!
I typically wear a crimson polo under some of my more neutral sweaters, or as a stand alone with sport coats or blazers in the heat for casual activities, or a navy blue or white or cream one the rest of the time. The navy looks handsome under a natural colored Shetland sweater, as does a rust one which I used to have……
I am also a fan of mint or sea-foam green polos or mustard colored ones to pair with my extensive collection of Shetlands and alpacas in both saddle shouldered crew neck model, and in cardigans.
Thanks for this! Great Look!
Oh! -And regarding the white socks! Try the Wigwam natural white or super white rag wool socks! They’re very comfy and the original, well as close as, now that Adler’s is no more. I believe that L.L. Bean also offer them, but I couldn’t swear to it.
Strangely, I found none at Mes Chaussettes Rouges, but perhaps its more of an Americanism as it does derive from Ivy League Style and general American Casual/Traditional.
Love these Articles! Thanks Simon! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Thanks, deep and detailed thoughts as always Evan. On the white socks, I’ve tried a few and my favourites are from Anonymous-Ism – they’re the most comfortable thing I’ve ever put on my feet. So many different panels, thicknesses. Unfortunately Trunk doesn’t seem to be doing them currently – they used to have a white and blue sports sock like that.
I guess not surprising that the Japanese if anyone would do a great version.
Thanks, Simon! It is always a pleasure to read yr exceptionally well thought out articles and to see things from yr perspective! I agree on the propensity of the Japanese to take something, run with it, and make something entirely charming and unexpected out of it. I still get my Wigwam socks, though I honestly wish that someone made natural unbleached “white” or more closely Winter white over the calf woolen socks, or rag woolen socks. The Wigwam ones are quite warm, but don’t stay up to well except in the women’s models which are never dense enough. I did have a cream colored cable knit cashmere pair for many years, that I only wore for certain occasions (Cricket Matches while watching, and Tennis Matches, also while watching), but as with most cashmere hosiery, they eventually wore out….I remember a saying, one is none, two is one, and 3 is a spare. I think that there is something to that, at least with delicate items that can receive moderate to heavy wear and are not something which can be merely re-ordered from one’s tailor. Anyhow, as always, thank you for sharing!
I wear a crewneck jumper on most days during the autumn. Underneath, my choice is an Oxford cotton or flannel shirt. A polo shirt, even with a high collar, just doesn’t look right on me and it’s a just a bit too casual.
A silk scarf or cravat adds some extra colour, warmth and protection from the rain. They are a practical and smart, but still casual, alternative to neckties. Mine are made of paisley madder silk. What’s your opinion on cravats?
Your wife is right about white socks. They are horribly naff and are only suitable for sport.
I like a small scarf at the neck too, but prefer wool or cashmere (like the ones I designed and referenced in the piece), or a cotton bandana for more casual
I love cashmere scarves too but it’s not quite cold enough in London for them at the moment.
Simon,
Have you tried the Hindi prayer shawls in loose weave cotton? I have 2 that I regularly wear, one in bright canary with rust block printing, and one in dark curry, also with rust block printing. They are quirky, but because of the weave, despite it’s delicacy, it actually does wonderfully keeping yr neck warm! The dark curry one is rather short, so I typically tie it in a square knot, and wear it as a cravat, the other one is much longer, so I fold it in half and draw the open end through the loop of the fold, or wear it as a neck and chest warming shawl beneath coats when I’m wearing tweeds or sportier clothes and need to keep my neck warm. They are quite handsome, available in a wide array of colors, and quite functional and the traditional motifs which look as if they could have come from the bronze or early iron age have a certain eccentric appeal.
I have a nice pale, pinkish-purple polo from Tommorrowland in Japan, which I often wear with a crew neck. It also has a good, high collar. I particularly like it under a pale-grey Loopwheeler sweatshirt, although that is more casual than discussed here.
Although I never really thought about it, I generally wear smarter shirts with the collar over the sweater and the polo or a OCBD with the collar beneath the sweater. That might just be due to slight differences in the shape of the collars but I have never really considered over-the-sweater to be a ‘look.’ Perhaps over-the-sweater might be considered a little more formal?
Excellent article as usual. What’s your opinion on knitted polo shirts over button-down collar oxford shirts? Drake’s use this combination in their look books and i’ve seen it elsewhere (Anglo-Italian i think) but i’ve never been convinced by the two collars. Any thoughts appreciated.
I think it’s a nice change from a T-shirt underneath, and don’t mind the two collars – though I’d only wear it as that, a change.
It has to be a proper polo-collated sweater though, not just a polo shirt.
Check out Cordone polos, long sleeved though. More broad collar and height.
On style: a popped collar has a particular sporting use for those who wear them (polo, yachting, tennis etc.) in that it protects against the sun and is part of the sportif phrasing of dress in that domain. When worn casually, in hot, sunny weather, it seems a reasonable adaptation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashion/02nacho.html
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/556687203915143985/
Regrettably the mode for white socks, as your wife indicates, doesn’t travel well outside of the US as they are taken as gym socks and therefore unsuitable with any street, casual or tailoring wear. With tailoring IMHO they particularly lack style.
Yes good point on the practicality. That always makes any menswear look unpretentious doesn’t it?
I find white socks so interesting because it’s so clearly cultural. As far as I understand it they were just sports wear in the US too, but occasionally mixed with other clothes. But weren’t in the UK. So there aren’t the same references in people’s minds.
Best to listen to your wife concerning the white socks Simon. They’re fine for school boys, but on grown men should be relegated to their proper role of being worn during athletic and/or outdoor activities only.
This just looks like a white shirt under a sweater which I think defeats the purpose of the polo under knitwear look. I think what makes the Rubato styling successful is the shorter, rounded polo collar that they flip up over the sweater to give it an effortless, nonchalant feeling.
It’s certainly less obvious than that, yes. More akin to the subtle difference of wearing a heavy traditional oxford shirt, or a one-piece collar. But I find it’s certainly something people notice when you wear it. Just not immediately. And you feel sportier too.
I understand that the illustrations serve the purpose of the article but as the article features a particular product, across six images, we only see the collar. As another commenter said re. the Vestrucci suit where is a clear image of the trousers? Were it not for the text I would have thought that it was the coat being featured. PS images, though well taken, are often static, similar (4&5) and lack variety of illustration: combined they sometimes undermine the ability of the reader to fully appreciate the garments or points featured.
The following provides alternative examples.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/326933254195241523/
https://www.thesartorialist.com/at-al-bazar/
I don’t suggest the generic style as follows:
https://www.mrporter.com/en-gb/mens/product/sid_mashburn/pima-cotton-pique-polo-shirt/1180450
Thanks, noted.
I guess here that didn’t feel like an issue because the collar is the only point being discussed.
Also, it’s a product you can easily see from every angle on the Armoury website if you wish.
I also wanted to be able to comment on the style overall – what it was worn with in terms of outerwear and shoes. Hence the full-look images.
Funny how similar yet different one can view things. I quite like the friday polos under my cashmere crew necks. The thickness doesn’t bother me since my sweaters aren’t the super fine/thin kinds anyway. But I much prefer a a long sleeve to a short sleeve. I like having a bit of cuff showing even if it’s a polo, and I also feel it improves longivety of the sweater, as sharp elbows tends to wear out knitwear sooner or later. Whether that has any scientific relevance, I don’t know.
My main issue with layering knitwear and polos however is simply that the pique fabric and the wool get stuck on each other, so it’s a pain to put off and on. Not a huge issue in the beginning and end of the day, but a bit more so when taking the sweater off and on during the day in the office etc.
Nicely put view JB, thanks.
I wear crewnecks most days nine months of the chilly year in the northern US, and under them, typically, rollnecks/turtlenecks: merino, silk, Pima cotton, silk-and-cashmere, etc. Most of the problems with shirts and polos are mooted—thickness, colour, warmth, strange lumps mid-arm where short sleeves end, fabric texture, collar placement, protection for the front of the neck—and I can take off the crewneck if I like without looking like a refugee from a resort. Since you, Simon, have recently written in praise of rollnecks, why don’t you turn to them here?
Good point. I guess I’ve just never liked that layering of knitwear – rollneck under crewneck. It looks a little too much like you’re just wearing two very similar sweaters on top of each other?
I wonder if there is a chance to combine a linnen shirt with knitwear?
Would this work?
Absolutely Axel, that’s lovely – particularly in the summer under a cotton knit
Hi Simon,
Interesting – thank you. Love this look.
I have a three Luca Faloni cashmere jumpers in the various styles they do. I’ve been trying to pair them with the Luca Faloni polo shirts (long and short sleeve) with their cashmere jumpers for the last couple of years, and I physically cannot wear them together. The two materials stick together like velcro, and it makes it unwearable, it’s bizarre. The LF polos also stick, although not so severely, against merino too.
Which sadly limits the use of the LF polos to the summer daytime or only with a jacket. A shame as the brand’s style perfectly suits a summers evening, where you would want to throw on a knit at dinner or like you have in these pics.
I had, therefore, thought it was a general polo/jumper issue – but sounds like the problem is with the material used in the Luca Faloni polos.
Have you or any readers find this problem too. Equally any ideas why the two materials stick together?
Regards,
A puzzled Chris!
Hey Chris.
Yes that’s an issue – the pique cotton of a polo just has a lot of texture – have a close look at it, compared to the smoothness of a shirt material.
It helps if the polo is short sleeved, in my experience, as there’s less to stick. And it helps if the knit is thicker, larger or coarser. (Luca’s are fairly light, neat and soft.)
But there are also different piques, and some are thinner or smoother. As I mentioned, the Friday Polos I find too thick.
You might find it easier to wear a shawl cardigan over the polo, certainly is its short sleeved, as there’s even less to stick then
Simon
That coat is yummy
You should definitely try Otero menswear. I found them to be the best fitting polo anywhere. It’s off the rack but looks and fits as if custom made. Looks beautiful under my sweaters and definitely not bulky or hot
Slightly off topic, Simon – I can’t tell if it’s the tonality of the photos or something else but, also having a beard of similar form, I noticed yours is looking particularly luscious and I wondered if you use any type of balm or something else that assists in that.
And, if I might be so bold, might I suggest you do a piece on facial hair grooming as I’ve noticed this evening too that your moustache is possibly tweaked to shape (but it might just naturally be that shape), but, either way, kudos as it looks the part.
Thanks Will.
To be honest, I do very little in that vein and so am not sure it’s worth much coverage. I clean it with normal shampoo, I clip it myself but without much regularity, and use some beard moisturiser now and again. But I’ve tried different brands, cheap and expensive, and never noticed any difference.
Good morning Simon,
I’ve just seen this very useful post. Now that I work from home on a regular basis, my default clothing tends to be a polo shirt under a pullover or a (smart) sweat shirt.
The Armoury polo looks very smart – although they’re rather pricey. It would be good to look at them before actually buying, but it seems the only Armoury stores are in HK and NY. Are you aware of any other shops that stock their products in the UK? Alternatively, these might be a popular product at a future PS pop up?
You mention Orlebar Brown polos (among others). While I really like the style and cut of their Sebastian polos, I’ve found their quality to be very poor, given the price. I must have bought nearly a dozen over the years, but holes quickly appear under the sleeves – where the material meets the sleeve band. This seems to happen within months, even though they’re being worn in rotation and apart from this are as good as new. Orlebar Brown customer service have been extremely dismissive when I’ve raised this with them. I’d be interested to know whether other readers have had similar problems, or whether I have toxic armpits?!
Best regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
No I’m afraid The Armoury doesn’t have any stockists apart from its own stores.
They have been at our pop-up once before actually, but that was a while ago.
I haven’t had that issue with Orlebar Brown, but then I haven’t worn them for a couple of years.
S
Hi Simon,
I notice that you have been wearing a raglan sleeved overcoat quite a lot recently. Would it be something you would ever order bespoke?
Kind regards,
Tristan
Probably not Tristan – it’s a hard thing to make bespoke and you don’t gain much given it’s supposed to be roomy and has little fit around the shoulders
I’d do MTM at the most, for length mostly
What is the coat you are wearing in these photos Simon? & Material looks very interesting too) Rups
It’s Saman Amel, Loro Piana cloth
Would you recommend for Testoria ones mentioned above? I’m looking at the Armoury ones too – but Testoria has some really nice colours (Ivory and Khaki) that the Armoury don’t.
Yes, the Testoria ones and nice, but the Armoury ones are better quality
You said that you regularly wear this outfit with your your Stoffa or Armoury Army chinos. You described elsewhere that the Armoury Army chinos are more workwear-style. It was my understanding that a cashmere crewneck such as the one you’ve got on from Luca Faloni falls more on the “smart” spectrum of casual clothing. I can see that a chino from Stoffa leans more to the “smart” side, where the combination with Luca Faloni makes sense to me. I was just curious about pairing the Luca Faloni cashmere sweater with a pair of workwear-style chinos. I’m guessing that you think it works well as an outfit? I just wanted to get your take on it and why it works and why you think it wouldn’t be a clash of formalities?
You’re right Alberto, this combination is a little on the smart side for the Armoury chinos, but still it works OK. I’ll do a separate piece on the formality of knitwear, but generally cashmere is quite versatile between styles – something like a fine merino like our Dartmoor or a Smedley, on the other hand, would be too smart
Is the Armory polo the spread collar or the button down?
Spread
Great look Simon. Is that the Ascot Chang Polo from the Armoury? How do they fit? True to size?
Yes it is, and yes they’re pretty true to size.
There is a great round-up of that and similar polos by Manish here.
Nicely written. Does the Armoury polo have a button-down collar or a spread collar? I wondered if that makes a difference to how the polo sits beneath the knitwear.
Spread. I find it sits better myself