This groundwork for this video was laid two weeks ago, when we examined the various aspects of the cut of a jacket.
It might be worth watching that first, if you haven't already. It showed the most important points of cut and structure, from the size of the shoulder to the curve of the lapel.
In this second instalment we build on that, compared two cuts in particular: the structured English and the Neapolitan.
I deliberately started with these two because they represent relative extremes in terms of bespoke style. This cut - the most common in the UK - features larger, more padded shoulders, a longer jacket, closed fronts and a slightly bellied lapel.
The Neapolitan, by contrast, has a small, unpadded shoulder, is shorter with open fronts, and has a straight lapel.
Many cuts sit in between the two - as we've outlined in detail in the Style Breakdown series on the pieces I've had made over the years.
However, it's not all contrast. I also point out that some things vary both in London and Naples, and are more down to the tailoring house itself, such as the drape or buttoning point.
I hope you find it useful.
Although there will always be advantages to articles over video (easier to search for and then search within, for example), it feels like some topics such as this one are particularly suited to a moving demonstration.
Other recent videos include:
- How a bespoke suit can be repaired
- How to look after wool knitwear
- How to look after tailoring
- How polish shoes part 1 and part 2
- How to fold a handkerchief
- How to look after suede jackets
- How to look after good shoes
In this video, I am wearing a green corduroy suit from Ettore de Cesare (cut rather closer than most I have), with a chambray button-down shirt from Luca Avitabile and a printed-silk Drake's tie.
The two jackets on show are from Kathryn Sargent and Eduardo de Simone.
Many thanks to Fox Brothers, who made this mini-series possible. More on their new Fox Tweed bunch here.
Film by Itch Media
An excellent and timely post. Your depth of knowledge in these matters – coupled with a geniune willingess to share with the plebs – is astonishing. Bravo!
By the way, I often wonder how people can embrace something as unbiblical as donning clothes made of disparate fabrics. Haven’t you ever had any qualms about doing exactly that, Simon?
Only the combination of wool and linen is forbidden in the Torah/Old Testament, but I believe it’s only Orthodox Jews who refrain from wearing it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatnez).
It is the two being woven together that is the problem. So, for example, a linen jacket with wool trousers is fine, assuming the linen jacket doesn’t have wool in it.
Most people aren’t bothered by such things as these superstitions aren’t a part of European culture.
Fascinating, as ever. Could you, perhaps, produce a further ‘contrast’ video commenting on the length, the sleeve shape, the armholes and the vents?
Many thanks in anticipation.
Hi Triskel,
Yes potentially, though the more you go down into details like this, the more it becomes a matter of difference between tailors. But there are a few more things we could add, certainly.
Interesting video, I’d love to see you do more with this format
Slightly unrelated; have the colors been made more saturated, or are your eyes always this strikingly blue?
I think it’s a little saturated. My lips aren’t that red either
Thank you. I always have been a bit confused. Crystal clear
@Simon doubtless, if one wants the more casual look of a Neapolitan cut jacket a Neapolitan tailor is the way to go but what about a drape cut from Anderson or Whitcomb? I ask because of the convenience of geography (being based in London) and in the case of Whitcomb specifically, cost.
In my personal opinion, I don’t think the two are very close together in terms of style. A drape-cut English jacket is too sharp in cut still to be worn casually, eg with jeans.
On geography, that doesn’t make much difference – there are almost a dozen Neapolitans that visit London regularly now.
I find your view on this a little perplexing and think you might have a bit of a blind spot.
Your DB cord A&S, I think it is one of the most relaxed louche suits – therefore in my view – one of the best in your collection and I don’t think you’ve ever commissioned an SB cord from A&S ?
I have a couple and I also have a linen SB, all of which I think are equally as relaxed as the Italians and certainly one of the cords I were regularly with jeans (the other by way of colour doesn’t work).
It would only be by putting the a cord single breasted A&S alongside an equivalent Italian offer that you could test my theory but, in my opinion, if you brief the right pockets and the right trouser width the A&S has a level of louchness that will please the discerning flaneur !
Simon – thank you for clarifying that point. In that case, who might you recommend for someone looking for a bespoke Neapolitan jacket that can be worn casually but is also conscious of cost?
There’s no one that’s making in India or China, and therefore as cheap as Whitcomb for example.
Solito might be the cheapest still, but he’s not cheap. I’d particularly recommend Ciardi or Caliendo. There’s also Ettore de Cesare, Rubinacci in their own shop of course, and others
Simon – thank you for clarifying. Of the tailors you’ve suggested, would it be true to say that Solito will cut a shorter jacket than say, Ciardi? Asking as I would prefer a jacket that fully covers the seat.
As a default, yes. I presume you’ve seen the Style Breakdown pieces on both?
Hi Simon
I’d like to make you a consultation that’s somehow related to the post. Is there any relationship between the jacket button point and the height of the trousers? I usually see you talking about the proportions of the suit, you mean this relationship or proportions between the body and the shape of the suit or between the jacket/trousers?
I’m sorry if the questions are out of topic
Thank you very much.
Dan
Hi Dan,
Interesting question. When the trousers are high waisted, there can be some connection. In that you might want the top of the trousers and the buttoning point to be fairly similar, so no shirt shows below the button when you sweep the jacket open with your hand, for example.
But with anything other than this real high waist, there isn’t much connection, no. You might want to try and have the buttoning point lower, to minimise that shirt showing again, but that would be to get the priorities wrong I think, as the buttoning point is so much more important to the overall look of the jacket.
When I talk about proportions of the suit, I mean more how they affect how the jacket appears overall (big, sleek, strong, long etc). The trousers are important too, but the jacket far more so.
Although usually Neapolitan tailors/jackets are more considered in terms of sports jackets or casual suits, certain more traditional tailors( I am thinking Ciardi, Rubinacci, Zizolfi) can cut a really classic and very comfortable formal suit. (Something similar to your Ciardi). I very much prefer my Neapolitan suits to those of drape cut, as I feel I am not trying so hard in a Neapolitan suit and I hate the bulk gathered in my chest of my A&S suit. I haven’t tried structured English as I feel it would come of as if I am taking myself a bit too seriously. And obviously Neapolitan tailors are great value compared to Savile row. The British do great formalwear though.
Dear Simon,
Would you recommend different suit styles in terms of age. I have a Ciardi jacket and a W&S suit and I feel my Ciardi jacket suits my age much better (I am 23). My next suit is in the works with Ciardi and is 12 oz navy twill which I am certain I would enjoy wearing, even a bit more than the W&S one.
Great video, although I don’t really like the choice for Neapolitan maker. I would have though you would have chosen Ciardi, Pirozzi, Caliendo or Solito as more typical examples.
Personally, I don’t think tailoring cuts have to go with particular ages. More with situations, formality and fashions.
Neapolitan suits seem a little younger, largely because the formality of an English one was associated with a slightly different time. But at one point, for example, soft sack suits seemed old-fashioned and sharp, strong Italian suits seemed younger.
I think the English drape cut and general Neapolitan style is what’s most relevant in today’s suit wearing population; at least that is my observation from an American viewpoint. I have certainly moved in the Neapolitan direction over the past several years and find the cut to be very comfortable, yet not always the most flattering. The drape cut, to me, is absolutely classic and more accommodating to a broad range of people. RTW in this style seems difficult to find and I often wonder why more English tailors don’t offer this cut off the rack, especially in the US. Paul Stuart, which does their own take on the style, is the only option I can think of off hand.
I do have a minor quibble about the comparisons- would it not have been better if one were comparing the two suits of the same materials. Here you use ( I think) a tweed coat for the neopolitan cut vs a pinstriped suit for the English. Off course the Neopolitan would look more casual. While I get the point you were trying to make I have to admit I was struggling to differentiate the two cuts as one being more formal than the other in style alone.
It’s a cashmere, but yes I take the point. I think the points still come across for most, but it would help if I had two jackets or suits in the same material.
Is it safe to say that Neapolitan (and Italian) jackets are shorter as a rule than their English counterparts, as it appears in the video comparison? I would add that the open quarters also contribute to the impression of shortness
Yes in general they are Christopher. You can see it in numbers if you compare the suits from those different tailors in our Style Breakdown series
Is the English jacket really as much longer as it appears in the photo? What is the back length of the 2 jackets?
Yes it is, although that jacket from Kathryn Sargent is particularly long. It’s in the Style Breakdown series, though I don’t have the measurements of the other one to hand
Simon,
If Cary Grant were alive today, and had to film “North by Northwest” (part II ?!?!?), do you think he would still favour an English cut, or tend more towards an Italian (not necessarily Neapolitan) one? (I would speculate more towards an Italian look)
Which raises a secondary question – while one can see tradition in the various styles (broadly – English, vs Italian), have they in fact migrated towards each other, or in fact, switched places?
I also presume it depends on style, look purpose, etc. An English tweed jacket for skeet shooting, I presume would be more casual, than a Milanese business suit, etc..
Hard to know on Cary Grant, but I’d suspect English.
A history on the way those two styles have fluctuated would take a long post, but from a structural point of view bespoke ones have been fairly consistent. (I’d stick with Naples not Italy though – Milan can have quite a bit of padding)
Just want to add that I found this video immensely useful. Wish it had been around when I first was trying to learn the difference between English and Neapolitan jackets! Your article, “Which House Style are You?” was the best resource for that, until this video.
I enjoyed the video and was struck by how nice your suit looked. I will have seen it before on this site, but seeing it on video had a greater impact.
Hi Simon,
I just wonder whether weather shouldn’t be factored in when one is considering a suit to be made. I mean regardless of the fabrics being used, say, a Neapolitan suit for hot climes, and a British for the reverse.
John
I think that’s certainly relevant in the extremes of heat John – an English structured suit is never going to be as comfortable in the heat of southern Europe as a Neapolitan one.
But otherwise I don’t think it’s a factor, no. I have jackets in heavy tweeds (eg my Ciardi) that are very softly made, and it’s no less suitable to cold weather than an English structured suit.
The internal structure doesn’t make as much difference once you have that weight of cloth.
Simon, once upon a time you published a very interesting interview about the six-point evaluation of the quality of rtw suits. Please provide examples of who currently corresponds to the highest 6 points. Perhaps Kiton and Attolini? Are there any other manufacturers?
Thanks Val, yes that was a nice piece. It was called the 1-6 suit rating system, if anyone else is interested.
Unfortunately I haven’t spent very much time looking at our assessing RTW suits, so I can’t really answer the question though.
https://www.permanentstyle.com/2015/05/the-1-6-suit-rating-system.html
Is there any noticable difference between the shoulders of the neapolitan tailors (Solito, Dalcuore, Caliendo, Ettore de Cesare, Ciardi) you tried in terms of padding/canvas/felt when wearing these?
Have you looked through the comparisons of them on the Guide to Tailors Styles series?
Yes, I have but I don’t understand the difference between for example “thin pad” (Dalcuore) or “canvas plus felt” (Ciardi and Solito)?
If there’s no actual pad (the latter two), it will be a little thinner. But just a little – a small difference compared to the English for example
Hi Simon,
Over the last few days, I have been browsing rather engrossingly through the various articles you have posted over the years in terms of the differences between the two leading traditions of tailoring, namely: English and Neapolitan.
The experience, I am pleased to announce, has rekindled my own long estranged interest on commissioning a bespoke tweed jacket myself. I must also say that I found the resources on this website to be invaluably insightful in my quest for both information and inspiration, so thank you!
If I may, could I ask you a personal question in terms of the specific context of commissioning a bespoke tweed jacket? Based on your own experience, if you could only have one, which tailors would you choose for this order? I have my own inclinations as to what your choice may be (or perhaps selfishly what I would like it to be), but it would be tremendously helpful to me if you could advise as such, so that I am able to corroborate it with my own opinion gained thus far. Furthermore, if you so wish, I shall be obliged to share my own thoughts on this after your response.
Best wishes
I’m so pleased to hear.
In terms of choosing a tailor, my first question would be, which of those two styles do you want? English or Neapolitan?
And then I’d sub-categorise (all this based purely on style): drape or military English? older or newer Neapolitan?
Hi Simon,
Thanks for your message and kind offer for advice. In terms of the choice between the two styles, I am inclined to say that I generally gravitate towards the English. I would not go into the various aspects that I feel may not be to my taste with the Neapolitan style, but I do still specifically like their soft shoulder and pronounced lapel roll.
Needless to say, my opinion has undoubtedly been heavily influenced by the grand volume of your prior research and writing into these topics. I can only return to you my gratitude for that. Now in response to my question, I suspect that you may recommend A&S and Steven Hitchcock to me in particular. However if I may, could I also perhaps cheekily propose that you might take the same decision, were you in my position? I know this is a rather hypothetical question and you do not have to answer, but it would be quite reassuring for me to hear your thoughts on this, as I highly admire your style and feel that we may in fact have quite similar tastes and predilections.
Best wishes
Hey
No worries. Yes, if that were the style preference that I would probably choose one of those two – presuming I liked the drape cut too, which I do
Hi Simon,
Is there a great deal of difference between the materials used to give structure to the chest in these two examples i.e. does the neapolitan have less canvassing or a lighter style of canvas? Or are they both similarly fully canvassed?
Thanks.
All bespoke would always be fully canvassed (all the way down the length) but yes, Neapolitan jackets will always use lighter weight canvas, and often not a layer of horsehair as well – so much lighter overall
Thanks Simon. I didn’t realise the horse hair was separate to the canvas; thought they were one and the same.
Have you ever considered doing an article or video on the different internal structures across a range of a few markedly different tailors?
Thanks again,
Daniel.
Yes, normally everyone uses a body canvas, but then only some use horsehair on top, in the chest, and then felt (demette) on top of that.
I haven’t, no, perhaps because it would mean taking apart a few jackets, and I’m not sure it adds much to decision making, it’s more of academic interest. But still, it would be interesting.
Thanks for the reply, very interesting.
You’re right, it is a bit academic; must be the nerd in me coming out!
There’s always one in there – just needs to be controlled now and again!